Oana
Hello. Hello. We’re back again. It’s our 18th episode, and we’re keeping the ball rolling. And if you’re new here on the platform, we are The Feminine. I’m Oana and my colleague Ioana. And we are together doing this podcast, and we are exploring topics of womanhood. And The Feminine is an online platform dedicated to womanhood, femininity, sacred femininity, to all the topics that are important and relevant for us women and for men, because women are so part of your life. I’m a transformational coach, and for the last 15 years now, I’ve really devoted my life to understanding the complexity of our humanity. And I really am passionate about myself and supporting others to live the life we truly want to live and love. And alongside my development and my search for what’s possible to believe and expressed as a human being, I stumbled upon the question of what makes me a woman. And this is how my search for womanhood, for my own womanhood and then a sport and facilitation for other women began. And I really wanted to understand in a culture full of masculine values, how can I be a woman in my womanhood.
Oana
And I’ve done a lot of practices and initiations and rites of passage and workshops with women shamanic, Tantric Taoist. And after all this search and after me is also a facilitator for thousands of women, I’ve just barely scratched the surface. And I think I’m at the beginning of what actually can be expressed, developed, and understood for us women. And I think it’s also in sync with a collective trend because women are taking their power back and they’re expressing their power. But most of us are confused about how to actually navigate through this journey and how to express ourselves fully without being intimidated or without feeling intimidated. And I think the topic is also relevant for men because as women are developing their sense of self to a whole new level, men have to also get themselves into the process because the dynamic is changing. And we’ve received feedback from many men that this podcast also is a support for them. And it’s very interesting how things are developing. I was missing a word and Ioana helped me. Hi, Ioana.
Ioana
Hi.
Oana
And today on this podcast, we’re talking about an article we read in New York Times.
Ioana
Yes.
Oana
And it’s about sex, sexuality, and intimacy. Hot topic, right?
Ioana
And the context is even more interesting than the article because I received it from two good friends of mine. Actually, the story goes like this. It was Thursday evening, and a friend of mine called me. A friend of mine called me, you and I need to see it. He was very dramatic. He was just bored. Nothing dramatic happened. And he came over and on his way, he told me, can I ask a friend to join in? I said, yeah, sure. Okay. And they both came in. And for the whole night, they just complained about their relationship with women, but not complaining in a complaining way. But they were just trying to understand why they don’t understand anything. Yeah. It was very instructive for me because I swear to God, I’m trying to retract myself from this dynamic of being a man’s best friend. But it seems that after I started to relax in the subject and in the presence of men, they just come.
Oana
It’s a gift.
Ioana
They just come. Yeah, probably it’s a gift and I have to honor it. But it was a very nice evening and they told me many stories about where they stumbling, what they stumbling upon in their relationship with women. And practically long story short, they don’t understand anything.
Oana
I could have told this now from the first get-go, but there’s nothing to understand. You just have to have the courage to be with it.
Ioana
Yes, but it was so healing, I think, for them also, not only for me hearing it because they said we just had enough of just having sex randomly. We just need a connection. Of course, they didn’t use these words because they were very confused, but that was the meaning of what they told me. And the next day one of them sent me this article I find it extremely interesting and I think it would be super interesting to do a podcast on it. It’s actually from New York Times. It’s called What Last Got to Do With It? And the basic question is why would a woman go home with a man, decide she’s not attracted to him, and have sex with him anyway? And it’s written by I hope I’m not mistaking the name. It’s Maureen Dodd, the name of the columnist, and it’s quoting from a famous short story Cat Person that appeared in the New Yorker. And I will just read some pieces from you because it’s very significant. It starts like this. I’ve noticed a weird pattern in fiction and life about sexual encounters. Women decide they’re not attracted to a guy they’re nestling with.
Ioana
Limerence is not in the cards, but they go ahead and have sex. Anyhow. First, we have this College student, Margot in The New Yorker’s much-discussed short fictional story Cat Person, who recoils as she watches Robert undress. But the thought of what it would take to stop what she had set in motion was way overwhelming. It would require an amount of tact and gentleness that she felt was impossible to summon. End of code. And I really find this short phrase telling everything about how we put ourselves in situations we genuinely don’t like and don’t feel they represent us, but we do it anyway because the effort to put an end to it, it’s way overwhelming.
Oana
Or the fear of not having those types of situations or being rejected or questioning yourself.
Ioana
Maybe this is my only chance. Maybe it’s something wrong with me. So I should go with the flow and see how it ends. I don’t know even what question I should ask you to start the conversation.
Oana
It’s only the question. I think exactly the trap was on the collective level. It’s a breakthrough that we’re so free sexually, and it’s amazing progress. And I think we need to account for it as progress. But what that put in motion was a lack of intimacy. And with our digital era, we’re stepping into so much intimacy with our iPhones that we do not know how to have intimacy with another human being. And we’re so afraid that we overlap intimacy with getting married or getting stuck into a pattern or into a dynamic or into a relationship that we don’t know how to develop an emotional language anymore. And I think the article is addressing exactly that. It speaks to dysfunction that we can’t really deal with. And as you were saying, your male friends experience the same dysfunction on the other side of the loop.
Ioana
Yes.
Oana
It’s not just women.
Ioana
They see disconnection.
Oana
Yes.
Ioana
And they cannot connect with the person. And pleasure can go until one point. But then you get stuck in that.
Oana
And it’s a certain type of pleasure, and it has its own limitations. It’s not a full, in-depth capacity to relinquish yourself in pleasure, to ask yourself in ecstasy. You don’t even experience that. It’s just gratification.
Ioana
Ain’t it actually a paradox? Because if you put yourself in a potentially traumatic situation, you actually shut down the capacity to open up to pleasure totally.
Oana
And you shut down your capacity to experience and feel deeply because they’re very interlinked. Your capacity for pleasure and ecstasy comes from your capacity to flow with your emotions. And that for a woman happened because she’s comfortable in her own skin. She’s authentic to her own desires and needs and is not afraid to express herself emotionally. But if that would happen, she wouldn’t go home with somebody she doesn’t like. She would stop it. And for men, it’s like men are so trapped in this very instant gratification culture, very much infused by porn. And they’re so set up in a pattern. And because they’re the dominating aspect of the dynamic because it’s how they roll, we just have to succumb to that, and that’s it. And actually, we are the gate for a man to experience ecstasy beyond his wildest imagination, but only if he loses the comfort of the porn dynamic and he’s willing to stand straight and authentic with our emotions because our own sexuality is women opens up when we are flowing in our emotions. So our sex center is women doesn’t open until we are flowing within our emotional landscape.
Ioana
Because you mentioned porn. I will go back to the article because there are two interesting ideas popping up. One is getting naked and having sex with strangers is hard. It’s a quote actually, from Joanna Coles. It’s a chief content editor and hosts magazines. We portrayed it as fun, and we pretend it was fun, but people, in fact, crave intimacy, which is not easy to create in a hookup culture. That’s why Britain just appointed the loneliness Minister. Did you know that? Yes.
Oana
Oh, my God.
Ioana
It’s real. I’ve Googled it. Yeah.
Oana
It’s like depression the next disease of the century.
Ioana
It’s incredible. And another interesting quote is porn is designed to get a man off in six to eight minutes. Many men don’t know even how to interpret female behavior in bed unless it replicates a porno film. Is that so true? But I think is it that this happens without even them acknowledging this?
Oana
Oh, it definitely happens. And it’s actually part of the comfort zone. Like men don’t want to go out of their comfort zone to really know a woman in-depth and claim her needs. But then a woman is in a way trapped in her fear of loneliness that she doesn’t snap the men out of that dynamic. So it’s on both ends because if I would be comfortable in my own skin as well as and I’m not afraid to be lonely, which there is no way interlinked, then I am able to set up the way in which a man approaches me.
Ioana
I won’t go with the wise this time. I will go to the house. Because one interesting question would be, of course, we get in these situations because we are curious most of the time. But how can we experience it in a healthy way? Because experiencing is part of discovering what you like, who you are, etc. But it breaks us not knowing how to do it in a healthy way. And the second question is if we are not comfortable doing something and we are afraid of saying, I won’t do that because we fear rejection, how can we do it in a healthy way without being disruptive or missing anything?
Oana
Well, I will speak for women because I can’t really speak for men. I don’t know.
Ioana
The question was for women.
Oana
I don’t know their inner dynamic, but I think for women, it’s the reason I invented sacred space. I created sacred space. I didn’t invent it. It’s something that happens as part of your heart opening. But it’s the reason I created it as a distinction per se because it’s like women feel the need to feel protected. And that’s such a very fundamental need in our own inner space and psyche. And we long for it to come from the men. But men are not showing up for that. Definitely. In a hook-up dynamic, men are not showing up for you to feel safe and protected emotionally. So you need to have your own back as a woman. You need to develop a relationship with yourself in which you feel that you are grounded in your own body and your own life and your own desires and your own needs. And you are experiencing being curious and open to sex with a stranger from a place of, I want this, I’m comfortable. I can map this territory. I’m guiding it. I want it for what it is, and I’m having it with no expectations. And it’s owning that experience and having your own back while you’re having that experience.
Oana
And most of the time, you can’t really have that experience without feeling emotional. So what do you do? You have two options. You are either very emotional and you keep having expectations. So that just opens up a wound because the hookup disappears 24 hours later and you’re left alone, sad, and feeling. There’s something wrong with you that you don’t have intimacy in relationships, but you kind of set it up that way. So you’re creating a vicious circle of I’m lonely kind of a story. And it’s just you creating that or you don’t have any expectations because you numb yourself to any emotions you might have. And it’s like a woman can’t have sex without emotions. She feels something anyway. And the moment she cuts her own emotions, that’s when a big betrayal, a big self-betrayal opens up. That’s why it’s like a drug. It’s very intense and high while I’m doing it. And then the next morning I’m into health, and it definitely doesn’t function that way.
Ioana
How can you contact me if you have a problem or feedback? Because, for instance, if you find yourself in an intimate context situation with a man and you just say, I won’t do that because I don’t like it, but in an honest way. And he replies, oh, my God, you have a problem. You’re so not fun. How can you reply back so that you can state your boundaries in a very bold way from the woman’s voice, not the child’s voice?
Oana
Well, it’s very simple. I don’t know how any woman would react, but I know how I would react. And I said this can only be fun if it’s fun for me, too. So we have a choice now to make it fun, which is, you include me in this game or we’re done for tonight. And whatever got us here probably was a misleading sign, which is fine, because there’s no point in hitting a wall if I’m looking at the wall. And I know that’s the only way I’m going to go in a dream that there’s no point. But you need a little bit of womanhood to get there. You need a little bit of experience. And I think what stops you from saying no to a man, can stop you. The fear of, oh, my God, he might become aggressive. That can happen at some point. But beyond that fear, I think what stops the inner world to say no is exactly the lesson that she needs to learn to become a woman, which is, I’m not doing this to please you, and I’m not getting anything out of it if I’m pleasing you and just this idea of the woman having to play the role of the pleaser is a very immature dynamic that women hold.
Oana
And what’s in the psyche collateral to that or connected to that is the fear of loneliness. And not only loneliness from a man like being single, but loneliness from the tribe. Because if I’m not fun and I’m not police, then my mom and dad won’t agree with me because they lived in a culture of women being police and so on and so forth. And they don’t feel safe in their circle of friends and they don’t feel safe with the men and they don’t feel safe with their parents and basically, they don’t feel safe. So how do I experience power with this dynamic? I started a relationship with myself where I feel safe no matter what, and I know myself so that I can be in connection with how I feel. While this is happening to me.
Ioana
What are we receiving? Is some feedback on our conversation. The question of the timing. I don’t even know how to address it specifically, but I think it connects with the way the article starts because it presents a situation of being in bed or an intimate space. But the question is because this confuses men too. Why would you get to be in bed with me if you know it’s a now, I think here is where the woman should come into the conversation in the mind of a woman who wants to say no and get out of the I’m playing with you dynamics because we put ourselves in those situations and then we complain.
Oana
Yes. Because we don’t really know what we feel and what we feel is something that happens through practice and it’s an awakening that occurs in our own relationship with ourselves. Yes, playing and being curious, and opening yourself to exploration is part of knowing yourself for sure. But I think it’s like how we set it up. We don’t use our voice, we don’t come from a place of power guiding the dynamic. We’re just letting the dynamic happen and we’re kind of trapped in a no-voice kind of game. Because if I would come up to a stranger and say hey, I’m interested, let’s explore something, but I don’t know where the night will go and I’m taking the possibility of saying no and I’ll let you know upfront when I feel it’s a yes or a no and I’m taking it to step by step. Even if it happens in 3 hours, then you’re just setting it up in a way that allows the man to feel guided into what type of expectations he could have. If you’re not saying that and you’re just shy or careless about him, then you’re not bringing yourself respect and respect into the conversation.
Oana
Because it’s like Donald Trump who said at some point I don’t know if he actually said it or it was Facebook Scrolls that don’t really believe that a woman is saying no. Even if she’s saying no. She’s saying yes or something like that. I don’t know if it’s an old saying, but it became fashionable again, Donald Trump. And it really is like that. We are the ones who are either closing the door or opening it. And it’s up to us to take control of that dynamic and guide the men into that. And it’s only the woman, of course, who can do that. A woman who knows how she feels or is giving herself permission to take it to step by step. And of course, it’s frustrating if I end up in bed and the guy is totally turned on and I’m saying no, that’s really not only embarrassing, but it may end up a very negative situation and it’s not necessarily his fault anymore.
Ioana
No, it’s not.
Oana
And the way he reacts is not his fault anymore, because if that testosterone is building up, it’s a trap. You actually set it up as a trap. So how do you give yourself permission to be brave enough, to tell the truth first to yourself and then to the other? Because I don’t think men necessarily go into aggression. And I’m not talking about me too. I’m not talking about me too, where sexual abuse was part of the culture and it went into that flow because there’s no excuse for men who violate women or there’s no excuse for men who go forward when a woman says no or in a way intimidates or overwhelms a woman and black males a woman into her career for sex. I’m not talking about that dynamic. I’m talking about a natural dynamic where you go out, the guy is okay, and he gets turned on because it happens so easily for them. They’re not so connected to their emotions. It’s arousal that just happens. And then you’re saying no, but you set it up that way. So it’s like exploring, being curious, being open, but giving yourself safety and protection, giving yourself authenticity and respect, and then treating the other as well, knowing that you are guiding the dynamic the woman always guides.
Ioana
I completely can relate to this either radical no or full-on yes, because I’m in a period when I’m not going out that much.
Oana
Mr. Smith. No, you just acknowledge the last episode. How many women and I want to acknowledge you for that. But how many women in our culture dare to stay so alone in a healing period in their lives and take that healing period and detox themselves from hookups?
Ioana
But you can’t imagine how many conversations because people in general when they see you’re doing that and don’t have the context or the power to understand why you’re doing that. Everybody in your life started treating you like they were therapists and they start explaining, well, you should not do that. You should let yourself go. You should be with the flow. And I can’t really explain to every single person why I’m doing that and what my struggle is I’ve never been in a dramatic or in dramatic place, but my inner self told me that I should just put everything on stop so that I can really understand what do I really need? And I still don’t know what’s the best option to say. I go explore, but I cannot promise anything. And in our last episode, I told you the story of the man I met with whom I went out for a dinner. And then I told him I want to be back home at 10:00 P.m… I think that’s a very good example to stick around because I also told him that I really genuinely like him and I enjoyed the conversation with him, but I cannot really make any kind of promise.
Ioana
And of course, he instantly started explaining that I have a problem, and it turned me off completely. And I said, now, what can I do? Should I explain in more depth?
Oana
There’s nothing you can do. If he’s not open to listening, then he’s not the right guy. And you just have to honor yourself because you’re transitioning a space. And when you’re breaking through on the other side, a man who will be available will come up. And I’m telling you this because this is how I hook up with my partner, future husband, and father of my kids. He was like any man jumping into sex with me. And I didn’t like him. And I was clear I didn’t like him. And I even told him I didn’t like him. So it wasn’t even a big surprise. I was very clear about myself, but he was like, yeah, but I like you. And I think there’s really something here. And I was looking at him very suspiciously, and this guy didn’t really get it or he’s stupid or what. And he’s like, okay. And I said, okay, whatever. And then he went on and kissed me, and I stopped him. And I said, well, from the sentence, I don’t like you, it doesn’t resonate with you.
Ioana
But I wasn’t off.
Oana
I was just, like, really surprised. How could you go on and kiss me? It just doesn’t make sense. And I said, Listen, if there’s anything that’s going to come up out of this is you retrieve yourself and be patient. And it’s not a function of no. I’m not rejecting you. I’m not saying no to you. I’m just telling you that I don’t feel it. And unless I feel it, there’s nothing going to happen. And for me to feel it, you have to be patient. And it’s actually turned on into a very old-fashioned movie, a classic movie where we dated for two weeks, which is like, for me at that stage in my life was unbelievable that I would have two weeks of dating with no text with the man. It was just like, that never happened at that stage in my life. And it’s funny because he got it and he was like, I was frustrated at the beginning. I really thought you rejected me. And then I was like, maybe there’s something here. And then he shifted and he opened up to the possibility and the exploration of it, and he realized that that’s just a setup that would allow us to go in depth.
Oana
And we did. We have a kid now together. So it’s very interesting.
Ioana
What do you tell or what’s the best thing to tell a man when he tells you you have a problem if you don’t want to just have sex? Now I’m at the point where I swear to God, if somebody tells me that I’m just on fire, I can’t stand a man who has no idea of what’s going on in my life telling me you have a problem, I will fix you. I don’t want to be fixed.
Oana
Yes, but why do you go fight with that? There’s nothing I’m at the point of my life when I really find the point in your life where you’re fighting for your own needs and honoring those needs against the collective judgment. And you need that as part of your healing process because you need to stand by your own inner girl and her own needs so that she can feel you have her back. And that’s part of the self-marriage you are undergoing as part of your healing. And it’s the transition toward the fully activated woman. But if somebody comes to you and says something that’s not authentic to who you are, you just say, Dude, you’re disconnected from what’s going on. I’m sorry. And you end the conversation.
Ioana
And what about the situation? Because this kind of dynamic is wrong, let’s call them not healthy for yourself can come even in situations where the chemistry is very strong. And I will give an example from a movie because movies are part of our life and our listeners love our recommendations. It’s called Love by Noem. It’s a very nice movie. It can be a bit radical, but it’s a very good movie. It tells a story between a boy and a girl, young, attractive, French, et cetera, who have a very strong physical connection, but at the same time very destructive. I won’t go into the film because I don’t want to spoil it for those who didn’t see it. But that kind of connection can also ruin you in a way. But you don’t know why? Because if the chemistry is so good, you’re not in the situation. The article, it’s just speaking about like, okay, I’m here, but I don’t like the guy. What should I do now? It’s like, I’m here, I like the guy. I’m on fire. He’s on fire. But something during time can be very destructive for both of you.
Oana
Well, chemistry is not the same as intimacy, and it’s not the same as a healthy relationship. And when we navigate or we open the door of intimacy in a relationship, it’s a different dynamic. It’s an emotional dynamic. The chemistry is just the fuel and the potential, the potential promise that something is going to happen out of that chemistry. If both of the partners nurture themselves and nurture each other and nurture the relationship. And it’s really like the chemistry is just the promise. And then we have to go to work.
Ioana
Yes, but often we mistake this chemistry with true love, with true love. And we put a lot of effort to make the relationship work because our mind goes if the connection is that good, when I know I have a history of five other bad connections, maybe he’s the guy and that’s why he should make it work. But it’s in the same way wrong.
Oana
Well, it’s not the same as having a healthy relationship. Chemistry is not the same as having a healthy relationship. And the moment we understand that and we understand what a healthy relationship implies, then we are able to take the chemistry and guide it and nurture it into something that grows powerful between the two of us. And if it doesn’t, then it’s your choice. What do you want? You want chemistry with destructiveness or you want a healthy relationship at the beginning, you want chemistry because you don’t know how to have intensity in your life without somebody giving it to you. So as you grow into your own process, you are much more grounded and much more mature because you can rely on yourself for pleasure, for love, for appreciation. And then you’re like looking for a healthy dynamic because you want the long run thing.
Ioana
Because we’re running out of time. I really want to stick a bit around the core of everything because everything starts from us trying to define ourselves, our intimacy, our sexuality, in a relationship with someone, a man, or a woman. It depends. But in fact, you’re always saying that everything starts within the relationship you have with yourself. And in the sensuality masterclass, you’re teaching the feminine. It’s like the core of the course. Everything starts in your own sacred space, in defining first your sensuality and then starting to explore intimacy and sexuality. Can you speak about this more?
Oana
Yes. I think we need this dynamic with ourselves more nowadays than ever because the context in which we’re having dynamics with others is not a context that allows us to grow and open in a safe way. So we need to develop a relationship with ourselves, like a sanctuary, where everything that we need can be present and we can allow it and we can nurture it and we can feed it. And it becomes like a healing medicine when we don’t experience the same safety and the same permission from the outside.
Ioana
I know it’s a general question, but is there any solution to fix this dynamic or a specific dynamic that can go wrong?
Oana
Well, I don’t know if there’s a solution, but there’s definitely a requirement of feeling. And if we look at it and accept it and acknowledge that we are stuck in a dynamic that doesn’t function because we have a need for connection with ourselves and with the other, then that can open a healing possibility in our life. And I think this healing is necessary and it will mature us and allow us to even have quick connections but without the experience of betrayal or self-betrayal. What’s the healing about? Well, it’s about taking a step back from rushing and trying to please society or a trend and really understanding that sexuality also needs to be healed. Being open sexually doesn’t mean your sexuality is healthy. Being open is good. You should be open and you should be curious because this is the only way you find out about yourself. But having a grounded sexuality also requires a woman, for example, to know her needs, be connected with her physical body, tap into her sexual energy, not as sexuality, but as a life force energy that runs through her whole body, understanding that she has this gait into pleasure that’s not connected necessarily to a man.
Oana
And by tapping into her own sexual pleasure, into her own sexual energy, then she can understand pleasure within. And the moment she does that, there are two things awakened. One is actual pleasure in your life, which makes you lust for less pleasure because you’re coming from an abundance that you’re cocreating in your own life, from your own self, and also the capacity to feel the authenticity of any moment or of any dynamic. And you will know where you go with that. That’s one aspect of healing. The other aspect of the healing is tending to your intimacy with your own self is actually tending to the needs of the inner girl which grows up the woman, so that you understand intimacy with yourself and then are able to be intimate with the other. And if that intimacy is available or not, you will avoid the trap of going into a dynamic where there’s no real grounded potential for intimacy, just the hope of it, so that you can have expectations and feel betrayed in your expectations because you can feel and sense once you have opened your heart and you’re connected with your emotions, if that man is available for true intimacy or not.
Oana
And you avoid that trap. And yes, there are men who are available for intimacy. The teenager in you doesn’t register that in a way. Part of it is because we haven’t connected with her long enough so that she feels settled so that the woman can attract and experience and understand intimacy. One of the things that I think is really important that I also explored and understood in my own process is that we overlap our capacity to feel intimate with our capacity to have it the way we exactly want it. Intimacy in a relationship in a grounded relationship requires the capacity to accept yourself with all your goodies and baddies and the other as well and you will actually accept the other and yourself. You will understand that you can have the capacity for intimacy Even if that person is broken or even if the relationship doesn’t go the way you want to go or where you want it to go and even if it’s not a perfect scenario. So working on ourselves with ourselves and establishing a connection an intimate connection with ourselves is developing ourselves emotionally and that enhances our capacity for intimacy which is parallel or different than growing up with Prince charming into marriage and having two amazing kids and feeling happily ever after.
Oana
This might happen or may not happen but intimacy doesn’t have to be necessarily missing at this moment the topic of intimacy sexuality and sexuality are three of the most important topics in the life of a woman.
Ioana
So you guys, please send us all your questions as bold and courageously as possible as they can be Because we really need to go in-depth to be authentic in this exploration otherwise we’ll just stick around the surface and there are so many dilemmas and questions in this world about these topics. Unaddressed questions, then I think we’ll just have to make 100 episodes only on this.
Oana
Yes. And it’s also part of our gifts or true gifts, feminine gifts that we can bring to our men, to the world. And I think going into the lesson fully for what the lesson can bring as a gift of our sexuality or sexuality or our capacity to love and be intimate is the power of the feminine. So let’s do the work that we are meant to do And let’s express these values the most and the best we can Because everybody can benefit from it.
Ioana
And it would be also very interesting to get at least one perspective coming from a man. So let’s keep that intention and maybe we’ll have a brave woman listening now we’ll go with her husband or boyfriend or friends. Exactly. And ask him, what do you need? What’s your tech?
Oana
So we’re expecting questions from men too.
Ioana
Thank you, Oana.
Oana
Thank you, Ioana, too. And thank you, listeners.
